There are two major distinctive claims of Seventh Day Adventism, which separate it from the rest of Christianity:
- First, that Christians are supposed to keep Saturday, the Sabbath, holy. They oppose worshiping on Sunday, arguing that it’s against the Ten Commandments and generally anti-Scriptural.
- Second, that the founder of Seventh Day Adventism, Ellen G. White, was a prophet.
The official Seventh Day Adventist website declares:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction.
But as we’ll quickly see, White was no prophet, and her works are riddled with errors. Let’s look at two of her major claims about the Sabbath, both from her supposedly-inspired book, The Great Controversy.
The first of the claims I want to look at is White’s assertion that all of the early Christians kept the true Sabbath for the first centuries of Christianity:
In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts.
(Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 52).
So that means that at a bare minimum, we should see every single Christian worshiping on Saturday for at least two centuries (since “first centuries” must mean at least two). Now read what St. Justin Martyr wrote in 150 A.D., in his First Apology:
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings [the Greek word here is Eucharist], according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn [That is, the day before Saturday]; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
So well within the first centuries of Christianity, Sunday worship was practiced. And notice that Justin doesn’t describe this as some innovation, either. He’s explaining to non-Christians what basic Christian practices look like, and Sunday worship is already the norm for “all” in 150. For someone alleged to be a prophet, White’s unable to present the truth on even this basic fact about the Sabbath.
Surprisingly, Seventh Day Adventist scholars admit that she’s wrong on this. Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, perhaps the best Adventist scholar, wrote:
The earliest documents mentioning Sunday worship go back to Barnabas in 135 and Justin Martyr in 150. Thus, it is evident that Sunday worship was already established by the middle of the second century. This means that to be historically accurate the term “centuries” should be changed to the singular “century.” This simple correction would enhance the credibility of The Great Controversy, because it is relatively easy to defend general Sabbath observance during the first century, but it is impossible to do it for the second century.
In other words, the alleged prophet’s words are true, if you change the words. This sounds like a polite way of conceding that Ellen White was a false prophetess.
But what about Bacchiocchi’s claim that while Sunday worship existed in the second century, it didn’t exist in the first? He’s making an argument from silence. This is a common tactic I’ve seen used by Protestants in defending their views. If you show that Ignatius believed that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ in 107 A.D., they’ll respond that the Church must have taken a symbolic view until 106. Of course, this sort of argumentation is ridiculous. If you’re going to make an argument from silence, the strongest argument is that no change in doctrine or practice happened — because if a change of doctrine had happened, we’d see evidence. If Christians suddenly (globally) started worshiping on Sunday instead of Saturday, wouldn’t someone have mentioned that somewhere?
White’s second claim is that it was the emperor Constantine who changed Christian worship from Saturday to Sunday. This is from p. 53 of the book I just quoted, The Great Controversy:
In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix). The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor’s policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathens, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church.
We already know that this is false: that Christians were already worshiping on Sunday well before Constantine. But what’s interesting is that White had a second and contradictory prophesy. You see, she also claimed that it was the big, bad pope, not Constantine, who changed the date from Saturday to Sunday. So, for example, in Early Writings of Ellen Gould White, we read her description of an vision she claims to have had in 1850:
The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. He has thought to change the very commandment that was given to cause man to remember his Creator. He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the decalogue and thus make himself equal with God, or even exalt himself above God.
From this, she learns that the pope is the Antichrist. In an earlier “vision” from 1847, she recounts:
I saw that the Sabbath was not nailed to the cross. If it was, the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to go forth and break them all, as well as to break the fourth. I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the Pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws.
Surprisingly even some of our leading evangelists believe, on the basis of Ellen White’s statements, that Sundaykeeping began in the early part of the fourth when church leaders urged Constantine to promulgate in 321 the famous Sunday Law.
This popular view has exposed our Church to much undesirable criticism. Non-SDA scholars and church leaders like Dr. James Kennedy, accuse our church of plain ignorance, by teaching that Sundaykeeping began in the fourth century, when there are irrefutable historical evidences that place its origin two centuries earlier.
I have spent countless hours explaining to Dr. James Kennedy and to professors who viewed the recent NET satellite programs, that this popular Adventist view is not reflective of Adventist scholarship. No Adventist scholar has ever taught or written that Sunday observance began in the fourth century with Constantine. A compelling proof is the symposium The Sabbath in Scripture and History, produced by 22 Adventist scholars and published by the Review and Herald in 1982. None of the Adventist scholars who contributed to this symposium ever suggest that Sundaykeeping began in the fourth century.
So, once they examine the evidence, even Adventist scholars realize that White is full of it. Obvious question: if that’s the case, why remain Adventist?
The entire Seventh Day Adventist church is discredited, because it:
- (a) declares Ellen White a prophetess, when she was clearly not;
- (b) declares her writings as an authoritative source of truth, when they clearly are not; and
- (c) continues, as its distinctive mission, is to celebrate the Sabbath on the Seventh Day, Saturday. Even the church’s name is based on this mission… yet the mission is founded on junk history, false prophesies, and bad Scriptural exegesis.
UPDATE: Check out Brent Stubbs’ post on Constantine and the Catholic Church. He quotes St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing between about 107-110, who said:
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher?
So by the first decade of the second century, Sunday worship was already a way of signalling that the Christians believed in Jesus as the Messiah, and in His Resurrection. So even Bacchiocchi’s claim that Christian Saturday worship existed for the first hundred years of Christianity is false. And it’s incredibly unlikely that this practice was new at the time of Ignatius. Since the Apostle John died around 100 A.D., one would think that he would have spoken out against Sunday worship, if it truly was a violation of the Gospel. Unless, of course, he’s part of the massive Constantine/papal conspiracy. Of course, we also see Sunday worship in places like Acts 20:7, so there’s no reason to see this as anything other than of Apostolic origin.
UPDATE 2: Brock, in the comments, quotes from the Didache, which was probably written in the mid- to late- first century… that is, at the same time as the New Testament. This closes the case on the idea that the early Christians were Saturday worshippers:
“But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving [Eucharist] after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. “
Good catch, Brock! I might add that the whole bit about the necessity of confession, the Eucharistic Liturgy being a Sacrifice, etc. — all incredibly Catholic.
Joe,
I am convinced that you are sincere that you are right in what you say. However, I find problems with what you say. Let me just go for two points. Please explain Col. 2:17 and how that fits into your explanation. Secondly, please explain how if the Lord calls the Sabbath “My holy day” in Isaiah 58:13, 14, that it is not the Lord’s day. Similarly, explain how when Christ says He is Lord of the Sabbath, that the Sabbath is not the Lord’s day. And again, similarly why, when it says that the seventh day is “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God,” in Exodus 20:10, that it cannot rightly be concluded that the seventh-day is the Lord’s special holy day?
Do I need to quote catechisms stating that the Sabbath is Saturday?
What authority would you give for someone who would say that God made Sunday a holy day?
For the truth,
Cyril
PS: Again and again, as a volunteer responder for http://www.Bibleinfo.com I have to urge people to take all the Bible texts on a subject and weigh the evidence before coming to a conclusion. There are 84 Sabbath gatherings for religious worship in the book of Acts to only two Sunday meetings. What occurs on a particular day is not what makes it holy. It is what God says that makes it holy. I urge a scholarly approach to this subject with “Judging The Sabbath–Discovering What Can’t Be Found in Colossians 2:16” by Ron du Preez. (Andrews University Press) Also, SabbathTruth.com has extensive documentation by Catholic writers and others, stating that there is no Biblical support for a change from Sabbath to Sunday.
“Question. Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question. -Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer. -We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of
Laodicea (A.D. 336–exact date uncertain), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.’!–“The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine,” by Rev. Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R., page 50, third edition, 1913, a work which
received the “apostolic blessing” of Pope Pius X, January 25, 1910.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
This is about authority and worship–the final showdown.
“Though these two divine streams [the Bible and tradition] are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still, of the two, tradition is to us more clear and safe.” –
“Catholic Belief,” Rev. Joseph Faa Di Bruno, D.D. (Roman Catholic), page 45.
The decision at the Council of Trent around 1563 AD was that tradition was above scripture. I say, REALLY??
WWJD? (and say?)
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For the truth,
Cyril
You are false sir. The Bible’s calendar is luner. The word month in the Bible is literally ” moon” there is no such word as Saturday in the Bible, or any other of those days mentioned. When you follow the the Bible’s luner calendar the Sabbath can be on a different day all the time. I wish I had time
While Seventh day Adventists are condemning people for worshipping God on Sunday the Adventist “Health” hospitals are performing
therapeutic and ELECTIVE Abortions for profit.
So how is it that Adventist Health hospitals are murdering the unborn and yet Adventists have the audacity to lecture anyone about anything?
Clean your house and stop murdering unborn babies for PROFIT.
Lord have Mercy
John I have been a Seventh-day Adventist for the past 44 years. I believe in all the doctrines we teach. I believe that God is using this church to herald the soon coming of Jesus. I’m ashamed that my church has a pathetic set of abortion guidelines that allow abortions for the “health” of the mother which is an open door you can drive a freight train through. Those guidelines are practiced by the SDA hospitals and many members in the West. Mark my word. God will have a church without spot or wrinkle when He returns and this bloody spot WILL be removed. Just watch.
Van,
You belong to a “church” that
MURDERS DEFENSELESS BABIES INSIDE THEIR MOTHERS…..FOR MONEY.
I’m very sorry but you are NOT in Jesus church.
Note to readers: Hard to believe we live in a time when people will confidently claim that their church is “Jesus” church while their church is murdering babies inside their mothers FOR MONEY.
Abortion can not be supported by the SDA Church teachings. A couple decades ago liberals took over much of the leadership. At the beginning of the SDA Church the pioneers came right out and called it murder. It’s going to take some doing to undo the mistakes of the past. The Adventist Health System is, for the most part, a separate entity from the denomination. The denomination doesn’t receive money from the hospitals/health system. The doctors do. Look at ancient Israel. They vacillated between following God and following the world. God was patient with them and didn’t give up on them. I’m not throwing out the whole barrel just because there are a few bad apples.What church/denomination do you belong to?
For some reason I cannot reply to Vans comment below. Let me just say for the record AGAIN if your “church” PERMITS the murder of unborn HUMAN BEINGS it is NOT Jesus church. PERIOD.
van ottey says:
March 15, 2019 at 2:04 pm
Abortion can not be supported by the SDA Church teachings. A couple decades ago liberals took over much of the leadership. At the beginning of the SDA Church the pioneers came right out and called it murder. It’s going to take some doing to undo the mistakes of the past. The Adventist Health System is, for the most part, a separate entity from the denomination. The denomination doesn’t receive money from the hospitals/health system. The doctors do. Look at ancient Israel. They vacillated between following God and following the world. God was patient with them and didn’t give up on them. I’m not throwing out the whole barrel just because there are a few bad apples.What church/denomination do you belong to?
Seventh Day Adventist church is a false man-made church. Jesus Christ founded the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church which is the foundation of truth (1Timothy3:15). Its teachings are infallible because of the quidance by the Holy Spirit (John16:13/Acts15:28) and Jesus’ presence until the end of the world (Matthew28:20).
Correction… Jesus was raised a Jew, in a Jewish home, not following a Pope who claims his is the anti-Christ 400 years after Jesus’s baptism… Jesus would’ve used the Old Testimate… Remember, Jesus celebrated the Passover.
So too is the Paganistic Papacy who are deceiving over 1.3 billion followers!
You know it is true…
Check the website…
Did Jesus not heal on the Sabbath???
Or did he let the beast die on the Sabbath?
One of the Adventist’s and Sabbatarians favorite lines is: “The Bible tells *US* to keep the Sabbath day” . The use of the term “US” is the problem. The scripture never commands anyone outside of the Jewish community and people to keep the Sabbath day, period. They somehow pretend that Exodus 20 is speaking to Christians, when there were none! Exodus 19 reads: 25 So *Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.* *Moses wasn’t speaking to Christians, he was speaking to Jews! Moreover, neither does Exodus 20 say anything about speaking to the other nations of the world or all the peoples of the world.* It’s Moses speaking to “the children of Israel” not to Greece, Italy, Rome, China, India or any other nation than the Jews. So, in the context, Moses nor God didn’t tell “US” to keep the Sabbath. God and Moses told the JEWS to be Sabbath keepers, not “us”. And, of course, ,we are not Jews, nor are we “Children of Israel”.
The command to *“Remember”* the sabbath was *never* said to anyone other than *the circumcised JEWISH community* *Moses wasn’t speaking to Christians, he was speaking to the circumcised Jews and the circumcised Jewish Community!* …. No other nation or people were commanded the Sabbath only the physically cirumcised people of the Jewish community were commanded to keep the Remember the weekly Sabbath (Read Exodus 12:14-19 and verse 12:48)
For us, *we are Christians and as such, we become neither Jew* nor Gentiles but a NEW people of God. Furthermore, neither were the Children of Israel, *Christians either* ! Thus, the apostles and the Bishops of the Church freed all Christians from the obligation to be Jews in Acts 15:5-16:4. And, this is emphatically stated in Col. 2:16 Where it is written:
COL. 2;16 *Forbids* Judging others in regard to *any* *”HOLY DAY”* ( Isa.58:13, Exodus 20:8, Ezek 20:20, Exodus 31:13-16) With no exceptions.
If the Adventist’s can’t read Lev. 23:1-3 and see that the weekly Sabbath is a FEAST , then they can’t pass a 3rd grade reading test. What Lev 23:1-3 plainly says, is yes, *”EVEN”* , the weekly Sabbath is a FEAST!
COL. 2:16 *Forbids* question anyone with regard to what they *”EAT OR DRINK.”*
COL. 2:18 *Forbids* worshiping Christ as an *ANGEL!!*
All of which they are GUILTY OF DOING!
If the Adventist’s can’t read Lev. 23:1-3 and see that the weekly Sabbath is a FEAST , then they can’t pass a 3rd grade reading test. What Lev 23:1-3 plainly says, is yes, *”EVEN”* , the weekly Sabbath is a FEAST!
*It was never a sin for someone outside the CIRCUMCISED Jewish community to break the Sabbath in both the OT AND NT. PERIOD*
So what does the JESUS COMMAND *US* ?
1John 3:23 And THIS is his commandment, *That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another* , *as HE gave US COMMANDMENT”* NOT SABBATH KEEPING! What the Adventist want to do is turn loving one another into Sabbath keeping so they can congratulate themselves on how holy they APPEAR.
Christ didn’t tell them or anyone else to become Sabbath keepers. Moreover, the SDA does just the opposite of what Christ *”commanded US”* to become the greatest organization on earth to persecute, malign and slander other Christians,* even so much as to call those who worship Christ, *”Satan Worshipers”*
If they loved Christ one iota as much as they SAY they do, they’d stop the damnable deception and persecution! IT’S ALL FAKE!
I am so glad the Adventist preach that the weekly Sabbath is a *”Holy Day”* ! *It exposes them for the heretics and deceivers they are!*
COL 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an *HOLY DAY* or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
READ IT And WEEP ADVENTIST. EVERY TIME THEY MENTION KEEPING THE SABBATH DAY *HOLY* they condemn THEMSELVES
The Sabbath keepers should stop being dishonest! Jesus never said, the Sabbath was *”His Commandment!”* . Nor did Christ ever say the 10 commandments were *”His Commandments!”*
*It was never a sin for someone outside the CIRCUMCISED Jewish community to break the Sabbath in both the OT AND NT. PERIOD*
The Adventist’s faulty premise is the reason for their faulty conclusion. They complete surmised and assumed an utter falsehood.
Bro… Jesus was a new… how many times do I have to say this… Catholicism didn’t happened till 400 years later…
Explain to me why Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath?
The Sabbath is a JEWISH ritual. Christians are not Jews.
The Jews REJECTED and killed Jesus (God) on a Friday and He was laid in the tomb on Sat (Christians don’t celebrate Jesus murder) and ROSE FROM THE DEAD on SUNDAY.
Christians celebrate the new covenant Lords day not the old covenant Jewish Sabbath. Sabbath Keepers are celebrating a Jewish day (the day Jesus was buried in the tomb) not a Christian day. SDA Hospitals also commit elective abortions for profit. They condemn others for celebrating the day Jesus rose from the dead defeating death once for all while murdering defenseless infants in the womb.
Lastly the Bible explicitly commands that women are to remain silent in church and are NOT to “teach” men regarding the faith. EGW was a self indulgent narcissist who ignored God’s explicit command for her own enrichment.
May God have mercy on her soul.
The sabbath was established at creation and sanctioned by God! If you reject all denominations and lived solely by the teachings of the Holy Bible you would keep the Lords day and all his Laws. You’re not arguing with the SDA church you are arguing with GOD himself!
Ha ha. If you want to get technical The Sabbath is from sundown on Saturday until sundown on Sunday
Hahaha mate… Jesus Rested on the sabbath day and since Christ as a Jew would’ve worshipped in the Seventh day of the week, he would’ve followed the Old Testament… all of which foretold the coming of Christ… denying the Old Testament means that you don’t believe Christ was of God… the fourth commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 says, “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy. Six days thou shalt labor and do all thy work, but the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord our God, in it you should do no work, nor you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your man servant, nor your female servant, nor ox, nor the stranger that is within your gates, for the Lord blessed the Sabbath Day and made it Holy.”
This is further clarified in Genesis after the making of man. Stating that God had set an example for Adam and Eve to keep. It says that he had made it holy…
Insinuating that God changes his mind about the day of the week during the Thursday before Jesus’s death would quite literally be stating that God is not 100% right. Remember that texts, which states that God word never fails and another which says that God doesn’t change his mind… why would he change his mind? It would be saying Satan was right… Also, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath… I also recall that Sunday worship throughout the world in basically considered pagan, when it’s not Christian… I mean history does paint that art for us. Also… remember that before Constantine gave his crown to the pope, he both legalized Christianity and changed Sabbath to Sunday in a document… the Pope claims it himself. In addition… we might as well address the fact that Christianity before they were freed by Constantine, was in persecution… True faith is stronger then. In addition… Upon leave the catacombs and living lives like free people… when Constantine legalized Christianity he forced people to become Christians… however logically, as people came into the church under force, practices came into it as well… let me see… oh yes, the Roman god Jupiter and the Greek god Zeus, got their name conveniently changed to Peter… and that Mary craziness… Catholics worshipping Mary, even though she herself was no god! She had no power over what the Holy Spirit did… and yet, they skip the over what the Holy Spirit did and worship her… in fact here’s a brilliant illustration for proof…
In my classical conversations home school Latin workbook, there are four noun declensions…
Now in the first declension they have these words:
Nautea -Sailor
Terrea- Earth
Mariea- Mary ( specifically the Mother of Christ )
Now in the third declension they have these words:
Christianus -Christian
Christi- Christ
Then as a summary of this… they go on fighting that the first declension on towards the fourth, was put together in three factors… relevance of the past, importance in present lives, and worth.
So yea… seems sorta clear… also remember those first two commandments?
Related to not making or worshipping idols.
Sure… and what does the scripture say? And he rested on the Sabbath…
Also… the Jews man have mastered the art of knowing their family line… their Saturday following ritual as you called it, dates back since the beginning…
Paul was a Jew, yet he taught us to keep the New Covenant law.
Paul said the Old Covenant was fading away and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8:13).
The Gospel was meant to go to the Jews first!
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Paul would always go into a new town and seek out Jews first. Acts says this was his custom. Where do you meet the local Jews? At the synagogue! After finding any Jews that would follow the Gospel message, he would reach out to the Gentiles in the community.
Paul was a Jew, his whole life. He never renounced Judaism! But the gospel to the gentiles did not require gentiles to become Jews like the Old Covenant did (Exodus 12:43-49). The New Covenant has none of the Jewish ceremonies that the Old Covenant required of Jews.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 says,
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”
Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, yet the Bible never say he kept the Sabbath. It was Paul’s custom to go out and find Jews whenever he went into a new town. The Jews met as a group on the Sabbath in the synagogues so Paul would always go there to meet the most Jews at one time.
There no example of exclusively Gentile Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church after the resurrection of Christ. There is no command anywhere in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy.
The Apostle Paul wrote over one third of the New Testament and never once told his Gentile converts to keep the Mosaic Law or the Sabbath. Not once. Paul gave his churches instruction on everything they needed to know about Christianity: morality, giving, leadership principles, church organization, theology and everything else they needed to know to live the Christian life and never even once commanded anyone to keep the Old Covenant Law or the Seventh-day Sabbath.
Why?
None of the other writings in the New Testament tell us to keep the Old Covenant Law or the Sabbath. Why?
Well think about it this way…
Let’s say you have a bran new book the president of the USA wrote you and your family personally.
And let’s say that you had to maintain that book and read it to be allowed to exit prison, ok?
So as you read it it tells you of a person who has the key to freedom of life, and exactly what he will teach about. So as you read anticipating his coming the book gets old and you have memorized it. Then one day the person with the key comes and opens the door. As he feasts with you after three and a half days of doing this, he tells you that he is replacing word that the president gave him to anticipated for ( this would be the covenant ) of the book the president gave him with one, he the presidents son has. Inside it gives him another anticipation, about him coming back a second time, which will be when he is set free.
The Old Testament is still relevant… it has proverbs and Ecclesiastes which contain wise words. Stories of David and Solomon in Samuels two books and the stories of the kings of Israel in the the two chronicles and the two book of kings… Genesis shows how our earth began… Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deutoronomy, talk about the feasts… and how they anticipate Christ, and how they circulated to the sanctuary in Revelation, and which Revolution is connected to the book of Daniel, with the ugly beast in Romans, which is the same beast in Revelation… when described. The book of Daniel talks about Nebucanazzars grand sons party and how the right on the wall talked about how Cyrus was taking Babylon that day, Which proves the book of Isaiah relevant… because he spoke of Cyrus by name and how he would take over Babylon… and Isaiah has a connection with Jesus with the numerous verses like this, “He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” ( Speaking of his death, and how it saved us. )
In addition, Daniel also speak of the 70 day Prophecy, which states the time when the people of Israel like Nehemiah and Ezekiel would be allowed to go back and rebuild the temple and Jerusalems walls. Which King Xerxes, the same who married Ester… ( which shows Esters relevance )… was mentioned by name in Isaiah.
Ruth the book is relevant because she was a descendent of King David, a descendent of Jesus, mentioned in the book of Matthew, just like the women who had the red cord hanging during the battle of Jericho.
You see, you say that all of the Old Testament is not necessary but it is, it tells about our lineage.
The old convenent talked of the promise of Jesus coming, and the necessity of most of the feasts… his second was of the promise that is we believe in him, and his sacrifice, that he would come back and save us… I.e. second coming… mentioned after the great commission by the angels… specifically!
Also, E.G.W. may not seem relevant to the public eye. But listen to the stories… they line up with what the Bible says… I mean who can argue with a 4ft 5in women who weighed 80lbs and held a 30lbs for 30min it’s while in vision, a women with a bad right arm that wrote over 100 books… and women who grew up Methodist, and because of a rock that hit her head she followed Christ more then ever before? A millerite, who believed Jesus was coming in the year 1843 then 1844… to find out that He didn’t, but after pouring over the scriptures with Joseph Bates a famous sea captain,
She along with thousands to come, found out with the use of Leviticus and Moses books found out that it was actually about the start of the judgement mentioned in revelation when those books where opened and it speaks as our God as been on our side in every way.
This of course is the 2300 day prophecy… remember one day equals one year.., in Biblical words… this prophecy not only tells of when the judgment will begin, but about a few inside events that account how accurately the Bible is and how it still effects us today. For instance, it told the exact day that Napoleon Bonaparte took prisoner the Roman Catholic Pope, proving that the pope wasn’t powerful at all, and that he was actually the anti-Christ.
Cyril,
Your second comment repeats the same pattern of misinformation. You once again cited to: “The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine,” by Rev. Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R., page 50, third edition, 1913, a work which
received the “apostolic blessing” of Pope Pius X, January 25, 1910.
You quoted that above, and I already showed that the quotation is false. And the book (as far as I can tell) appears to have been first published in 1930, long after St. Pius X was dead.
Are you not reading these corrections, or do you not care about getting these things right? The first time, I wrote it off as a simple mistake. But you’ve yet to admit to any mistake, even when it’s been shown to you that the claims you’re making are untrue. And then you go and repeat the already-disproved “evidence.”
The same with your latest claim: “The decision at the Council of Trent around 1563 AD was that tradition was above scripture. I say, REALLY??”
Really, no. Trent never said that. You can find the canons of the Council of Trent online. Show me anywhere that Trent makes this claim — because in fact, The Council rejects this view.
You say “for the truth.” This is the time to live up to that — examine your own evidence, and make corrections as necessary. Then we can get back to the topic at hand.
God bless,
Joe
Dear sir both the Roman Catholic and seventh day Adventist churches are cultic
Roman Catholic with man. Made rituals and traditions and doctrines and pomp and circumstances services
And men dressing in costumes using unbiblical terms for themselves like Monsignor archbishop metropolitan cardinal father or the pope being addressed as holy father and denying the one sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and re sacrificing Jesus over and over in the mass
Then you have the sda church modern day judizers who claim Christians are still bound to the ceremonial part of the 10 commandments and the dietary laws of the book of Leviticus
If the sda looked closely every time they start their car on Saturday to go to church they have broken the 10 commandments which says thou shalt not make fire on the sabbath when the people who work for sda tv station produce shows on that station or have people answer the phone on the sabbath you are breaking the commandments it says you can not open a gate or feed your animals pick up a stick if you do so when you break one commandment you have broken all of them
There is no ceremonial part to the 10 commandments. They are separate. The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. It was written by Moses on paper and stored in a pouch on the side of the ark. The 10 commandments were written by God’s own finger on stone and stored inside the ark. You can nail paper but not stone. I don’t follow the dietary laws. I follow what the bible aid before there ever was a Jew. Look at the original diet in the garden of Eden and the distinction between clean and unclean animals before the flood. So, looking at the 10 commandments, is it OK to steal? Cheat on your wife? Use God’s name in vain? Which of the 10 is it OK to break? Just the Sabbath? How did that one get picked out of the 10? Romans 4:15 says that where there is no law there is no sin. Follow the logic. Do away with the law and there is no sin. No sin, no sinners. No sinners, no need of a savior. No need of a savior and Christ died for nothing.
*The weekly Sabbath was the most ceremonial of all the days of the week*. NU 28! Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 10‘This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.
EZEK 46:45
And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer to the LORD in the sabbath day shall be 6 LAMBS without blemish, and a ram without blemish.!
Matthew 12:5
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple *profane the sabbath, and are blameless?*
The daily sacrifices consisted of two burnt offerings: one lamb … in the morning [9:00 AM], the other lamb … in the evening [3:00 PM] (Numbers 28:4,8). This last phrase, in the evening, literally ‘between the evenings’, probably means late afternoon. (3)
*On the weekly Sabbaths and festivals, when additional sacrifices were appointed, they were offered in the time between the regular morning and evening sacrifices. Numbers 28:23 suggests they were presented immediately after the morning sacrifice.
Daily Sacrifices were offered, every day of the year and then the additional sacrifices on the Sabbath day shown in Ezek. 46:45. sacrifices on the Sabbath day shown in Ezek. 46:45.
Ellen G White and the Adventist Church agrees that the weekly Sabbath is a *“Shadow of things to come”* in Col. 2:16.
The Fatal Blow to the Adventist theology is what The SDA teaches regarding the weekly Sabbath #20 reads “It [the Sabbath] is a *symbol* of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a *foretaste of our eternal future* in God’s kingdom”. IN OTHER WORDS *”A SHADOW”* Of things to come!!! (Col. 2:16-17)
This is contained In the SDA 20 fundamental beliefs under the Sabbath Heading. Read it for yourself!
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf #20
And, again Ellen G. White declares that the Sabbath is only a shadow of the coming of rest found in the body of Christ, repeating what Col. 2:16-17 Teaches, “The Sabbath points them to the works of creation as an evidence of His mighty power in redemption. While it calls to mind the lost peace of Eden, *it tells of peace restored through the Saviour.* And every object in nature repeats His invitation, *”Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.”* Matt 11:28. Published in The Desire of Ages, pp. 281-289.
Now go read Col. 2:16-17 and see that Ellen G. White and the SDA all agree that the weekly Sabbath is a *”Shadow and foretaste of things come”*
There can be no doubt, that in the mind of both Ellen G. White and the Adventist Church, they know the weekly Sabbath is and was *”A Shadow of things to come”* as explicitly taught in Col. 2:16. It’s simply undeniable.
Are you referencing the Jewish laws that the Pharisees made as quoted in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts?
*The Origin of Sunday Worship* >>>>>>> Unlike the SDA, there is no fable in the following, it’s all scripture and truth.
The origin of Sunday worship comes from Jesus himself and the Apostles. Moreover, Moses himself demanded Sunday worship as did the prophets of the Old Testament. Even the prophet Daniel approves of Sunday Worship.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and on the first day of the week, it was not coincidental God separated those of the light from those in darkness and called it “Very Good”. Indeed, the gospel of John records that Christ was and is that light and Sabbath keepers knew him not and, slew him.
*The Old Testament*
It is God and Jesus Christ himself, that had already made Sunday sacred. The Adventist greatly err regarding the scriptures and of Christ and the gospel, have left the Spirit of God and Grace. And, now they do not cease to deceive the people in their heresies. The Law of God forced his Priests to worship him every Sunday twice a day (Exodus 29:36-41) as it did every other day of the week. It is noted that many of the annual holy days fell periodically on Sunday too. The scripture exposing the Adventist’s bigotry , since Christ created the first day of the week as much as the 7th day of the week. And, this Moses, Daniel and Christ and the Apostles speak of the *Daily Sacrifice* which is offered every day of the year, including Sunday. Exodus 29: 36-42, Numbers 28:1-8, and directly referred to in Dan.8:11, 8:12, 8:13, Daniel 12:11, Hebrews 7:27 *The Daily sacrifice also dispels the Pharisaical nonsense of any existence of supposed days owned by the Pagans, as Pagan Days by the Sabbath keepers. *
In LUKE 24:50 Unlike Gen. 2, *Christ raises his hands and blesses his followers on Easter Sunday* VS 50)
God *didn’t bless or sanctify Adam and Eve* in Gen. 2. But, *on Sunday the DAY his resurrection, God blessed ALL his disciples* and sanctified them. The Adventist are ever ecstatic over God blessing a day, while shunning the enormity of God blessing with his own hands the disciples on Sunday and sanctifying THEM as his own!
*The Gospels and the book of Acts*
Moreover, God ordained and commanded that Pentecost should yearly celebrated on Sunday as a Holy Day sacred to Israel. It was Christ who changed the Sabbath to the Lord’s Day, because Christ was and is Lord over the Sabbath day. In John 5:17-19, Christ declares how He and His Father *”work”* on the Sabbath. Changing from the rest of Genesis 2 to the day of Work in John 5:16-19, for which cause the Sabbath keepers “sought all the more to persecute Christ and to KILL Him.” . And, indeed the High Priests of the Sabbath keepers betrayed Christ and put him to death. However, seeing they knew not the scriptures that Christ would rise again, they thought they had victory over Christ. But, Christ being raised on the 3rd day, was shown to be both *Lord and God* , from whence comes the term, The Lord’s Day.
*The very first thing you find in the gospels immediately after the resurrection is the Apostles worshiping Christ upon the first day of the week.* And, his disciples were *appointed to worship Him on his resurrection day* which they did as he commanded. And, then the next week also on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath, because the Sabbath keepers did not know Christ as Lord, but rejected him. And, continually the met *”upon the first day of the week”* as a memorial of his death and resurrection.
They met secretly for “fear of the Jewish Sabbath keepers’. Until the day of Pentecost Sunday, when God so gloriously blessed all his people beyond measure of any other day, with the Holy Spirit on that Sunday, and 3,000 are converted, and baptized as Peter preached unto them.
*Ceremony and Circumcision takes PRIORITY OVER THE SABBATH*
Christ repeatedly demonstrated by showing how that *ceremonial things took PRIORITY over the keeping or resting on the Sabbath both in circumcision and in animal sacrifices,* , AND Christ as Lord of the Sabbath disobeys Moses’ the instructions in Exodus 16 by picking up grain on the Sabbath day (Mk. 2:23-28)
And, we have it recorded in Acts 20:1-7 , that the Apostle Paul stayed in Troas 7 days., wherein is a Sabbath with no gathering of the church , but waited until the “First day of the week” to worship together with the disciples.
It is true, that the Jewish converts to Christ, continued to keep the whole law, Sabbaths and Jewish holy days, not out of obligation but out of conscience sake, because they had always been ordered to keep the whole law from their childhood and after circumcision of the flesh. . At the same time,* they ceased to preached the law for righteousness, but used the law to preach and bring all people to Christ. But, the Judaizers abused the name of Christ to teach the law and were condemned in writing by the Apostles and bishops in Acts 15:1-16:4
*The Holy Spirit led the church and the Apostles to understand, that the 10 commandments, were only a shadow of The body of Christ, the 10 Words made flesh, and thus, condemned anyone who would begin to judge Christians in regard to the Sabbath day or Any Jewish Holyday.* ( Col.2:16 ) The use of both the Sabbath Day and Holy Day, would allow no Judaizer any escape from their condemnation. And, in Hebrews 4:8, we find Jesus speaking of his rest being changed to *”Another day”*
But, more even in the 1st Century, we have the proof that the commandment came from Christ and no one else, to worship him, *”upon the first day of the week”* known to them as the Lord’s day because of his resurrection from the dead, proving he was both Lord and God! And so, it was recorded in 90AD, at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation:
XXX. *On the day of the resurrection of the Lord, [3466] that is, the Lord’s day, assemble yourselves *together, without fail, giving thanks to God, and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ, and has delivered you from ignorance, error, and bondage, that your sacrifice may be unspotted, and acceptable to God, who has said concerning *His universal Church* (Catholic) : “In every place shall incense and a pure sacrifice be offered unto me; for I am a great King, saith the Lord Almighty, and my name is wonderful among the heathen.” [3467]
From
“On this account He permitted men every Sabbath to rest, that so no one might be willing to send one word out of his mouth in anger on the day of the Sabbath. *For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world,* the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men.* *All which the Lord’s day excels* , and shows the Mediator Himself, the Provider, the Lawgiver, the Cause of the resurrection, the First-born of the whole creation, *God the Word* , and man, who was born of Mary without a man, who lived holy, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died, and rose again from the dead. *So that the Lord’s day COMMANDS US to offer unto Thee, O Lord, thanksgiving for all* For this is the grace afforded by Thee, which on account of its greatness has obscured *all other blessings.”* Didache ( *90 AD* ) Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book XXXVI, A PRAYER COMMEMORATIVE OF THE INCARNATION OF CHRIST, AND HIS VARIOUS PROVIDENCE TO THE SAINTS.
Wednesday, January 27, 2021
12:06 PM
https://biblehub.com/library/various/constitutions_of_the_holy_apostles/sec_ii_on_the_formation_of.htm
It was Christ HIMSELF and the Apostles THAT MADE HIS LORDS DAY HOLY! * *In 90AD* we have it recorded, CHAPTER 9 9:1 “If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, *but living in observance of the Lord’s day,* on which day also our life rose through him and through his death, which certain deny, through which mystery we have received faith (and through this abide, *that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher* ), 9:2 how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? And on this account, he whom they rightly expected, when he came, raised them from the dead.” Ignatius ( *107 AD)* , The Epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians chapter 9:1 and 2.
*As well, the book of Revelation also from 90A records that St. John receives the Revelation of Jesus Christ on “The Lord’s Day” and not on the Sabbath day.* whom the Sabbath keepers deliberately change to the refer to the weekly Sabbath to hide their heresies.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/Greek/ignatius.magnesians.html 225 AD The Didascalia *”The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation, because on the first day of the week* our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven”* (Didascalia 2).
Finally, the entire Constantine propaganda about him changing the day is proven false by Eusebius the Christian Historian who lived during the time of Constantine and the truth about Constantine is perpetually preserved and recorded for history
Eusebius of Caesarea
Historia Ecclesiastica (Church History), Chronicle, Life of Constantine, Preparation of the Gospel
, at the following link: From
The Adventists prophecies are nothing more than half-witted NEOLOGISMS!
*COPY AND PASTE APPROVED*
Did not the apostle Paul state that corcumsition was no longer required for grown up adult gentiles before they entered the church?
Joe,
It is with some discomfiture that read about my alleged errors. I am not convinced yet that this is the case. Have you heard of more than one edition of “The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine?” I see one here for 1946. I think that is where the problem lies in thinking that it has been misquoted. My source states that the phrase with the word “Laodicea” has been omitted in later editions.
So, let me admit my error. It was the 18th of January, 1562, not 1563.
Where is that studious looking D.A. Gerulus to comment?
Okay, the evaluation of documents is very hard to evaluate as to reliability due to conflict of interest, (Donation of Constantine is an example). But, for the Council of Trent, here is a sample, from a Catholic historical report, I believe, (please confirm), of the same and the man that gave the concluding speech regarding which has the highest authority, (tradition or scripture), Gaspere de Fosso, Archbishop of Reggio. I suspect you can find Catholic apologists who have tried to say it is a fraud, too!
Because of fraudulent history writers is why I have suggested just keeping our source of spiritual instruction and discussion to the Bible only.
1444. Sabbath, Change of—Cited in Council of Trent as Proof that Tradition Is Above Scripture
Source: Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, Kanon und Tradition (“Canon and Tradition”) (Ludwigsburg: Druck and Verlag von Ferd. Riehm, 1859), p. 263. German. [FRS No. 72.]
The Council [of Trent] agreed fully with Ambrosius Pelargus, that under no condition should the Protestants be allowed to triumph by saying that the council had condemned the doctrine of the ancient church. But this practice caused untold difficulty without being able to guarantee certainty. For this business, indeed, ‘well-nigh divine prudence’ was requisite—which the Spanish ambassador acknowledged as belonging to the council on the sixteenth of March, 1562. Indeed, thus far they had not been able to orient themselves to the interchanging, crisscrossing, labyrinthine, twisting passages of an older and newer concept of tradition. But even in this they were to succeed. Finally, at the last opening [see editors’ note] on the eighteenth of January, 1562, all hesitation was set aside: [Gaspar de Fosso] the Archbishop of Reggio made a speech [see No. 1443] in which he openly declared that tradition stood above Scripture. The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the church had changed circumcision into baptism, Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ, but by its own authority. With this, to be sure, the last illusion was destroyed, and it was declared that tradition does not signify antiquity, but continual inspiration.
[Editors’ note: This “last opening” of the Council of Trent was not the last day, but the opening of the 17th session, the first meeting of the last series of sessions that was opened, after a lapse of time, under a new pope. The council was in session for longer or shorter periods over a series of years.]
The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Students’ Source Book; The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 9. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1962; 2002, S. 888
I am glad to hear you stand up for scripture as being above tradition. You are on the right track–keep it up!
Hope this is helpful.
For the truth, (2 Cor. 13:8)
Cyril
Cyril, forget arguing over the Sabbath and realize that Ellen White is a false prophet and was racist and the religion she founded is false. She said that when we are resurrected all black people will be white(she said she was shown this information) and as a black person I resent that. She also said a slave who was made to not know Jesus will not be resurrected. The 28 fundamentals of beliefs states that Ellen White’s writings have to be accepted as authoritative in order to remain an Adventist. This assertion is also found at the back of your batismal certificate. Appalling!!
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann (May 7, 1832 – 1910), German Protestant theologian, son of Karl Julius Holtzmann (1804-1877), was born at Karlsruhe, where his father ultimately became prelate and counsellor to the supreme consistory.
Dr. Johann Maier von Eck (November 13, 1486 – February 13, 1543) was a German Scholastic theologian and defender of Catholicism during the Protestant Reformation. It was Eck who argued that the beliefs of Martin Luther and Jan Hus were similar.
1445. Sabbath, Change of—Eck’s Argument for the Church’s Superiority Over Scripture
Source: Johann Eck, Enchiridion Locorum Communion … Adversus Lutheranos (“Handbook of Common Places Against the Lutherans”) (Venice: Ioan. Antonius & Frates de Sabio, 1533), fols. 4v, 5r, 42v. Latin. Trans. by Frank H. Yost. Used by permission of Mrs. Frank H. Yost. [FRS No. 127.]
[fol. 4v] The Scripture teaches “Remember that you sanctify the day of the Sabbath; six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God,” etc. But the Church has changed the Sabbath into the Lord’s (day) by its own author- [fol. 5r] ity, concerning which you have no scripture.
Christ said to his disciples in the mount, “I have not come to dissolve the law but to fulfill it”; and yet the church of the Apostles in the first council has boldly spoken out concerning the cessation of legal things…
The Scripture decrees in the [apostolic] council … that you abstain from … blood and from a strangled thing; a matter so clearly defined and expressed the Church has changed by her own authority, for she uses both blood and things strangled. See the power of the church over Scripture.
[fol. 42v] The Sabbath is commanded many times by God; neither in the Gospels nor in Paul is it declared that the Sabbath has ceased; nevertheless the Church has instituted the Lord’s day through the tradition of the Apostles without Scripture.
The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Students’ Source Book; The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 9. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1962; 2002, S. 888
Cyril,
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to track down each and every one of the passages quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Students’ Source Book to see if it’s accurate or not.
Of the sources that I have checked out, what you’ve quoted hasn’t matched with the originals: the controversial parts have been added in by apparently some unscrupulous editor or anti-Catholic apologist. So there’s good reason to believe that you’re using inaccurate sources.
My general suggestion is this: if you think that a particular quotation is really important, look it up online and see if you can find any Catholic or neutral sources that quote it. I try to do the same thing in reverse: I try not to rely only on anti-LDS or anti-Adventism or anti-whatever websites, because I find that they’re more likely to stretch the truth in order to win an argument. I’m just asking for the same thing in return. If there’s something that you want to know about Catholicism, try reading something written by Catholics on that point, rather than something written by people who don’t even practice the faith.
Hope that helps, and God bless,
Joe
P.S. For the relationship between Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, you can read the Catechism starting here (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#80). Or you can just read 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
Short answer: man-made traditions are inferior to Scripture. Apostolic Tradition is the Deposit of Faith and includes (but isn’t limited to) Scripture. So asking if Scripture is superior or inferior to Apostolic Tradition doesn’t make sense from a Catholic perspective: Scripture is part of that Tradition.
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David,
Ha! Don’t worry – it seems that both Cyril and I very much look forward to your comments.
In Christ,
Joe
Thinking. Thanks David & Joe. Give me some time as I have “a lot on my platter” here.
Blessings,
Cyril
October 7, 2011
Brothers & Sister,
By the way, we are not against Catholics as a people–just the organization. Ellen White gives much better opinion of Catholics than the other way around, (as seen in the Jesuit oath). Quoting her: “. . .there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. . .”–“The Great Controversy” page 449. What do those do who are in error and don’t want to admit it? Check out more recent history and Cain and Abel of old.
I see us sort of dragging in this conversation. Let me address some by name.
I keep seeing Theresa Beam as the first commentor. I did a critique of one of her write-ups in Former Adventists or ex-Adventists website, I believe it was, but had no way to send it to her. I see superficiality in her comment suggesting that they were celebrating the Eucharist daily with the intimation that therefore no day is now sacred and holy. Theresa is reading into the text more than is there. That won’t fly in the face of “Deis Domini” in which John Paul, II states that God blessed Sunday and made it holy. Further he calls for civil legislation in this matter, (a direct fulfillment of Rev. 13, when done). To that civil legislation idea, Benjamin Franklin says such religion is bad. (Full quote given previously.) I don’t think it takes “a rocket scientist” to see that John Paul, II’s statement is in direct opposition to Genesis 2:1-3 and Ex. 20:8-11 in which it states that the 7th day of the week was blessed and made holy. Then he goes on to try to apply Ex. 20:8-11 to Sunday–a fatal mistake!
For David and Joe I have to say that Ron du Preez has done a masterful job on Col. 2:16. “Judging The Sabbath–Discovering What Can’t Be Found In Colossians 2:16.” Superficially, one might come to quick conclusions about this text, but in going deep, much much more is involved. To try to wipe out any holy day with this text would also fly in the face of John Paul, II, who is claiming holiness for Sunday. Ron du Preez is a doctoral student and will be receiving his doctorate on the basis of his research on this very text. You can purchase his book online from Andrews University Press. (http://universitypress.andrews.edu/catalog.php?key=195) Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 (Douay)
Joe
To try to claim that all Catholic writings including the Bible are tradition won’t fly in the face of Christ’s statements in which He makes a difference. This reasoning is just clouding an issue that is clear. Matthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.
(Douay)
For Nick and the article that started this discussion, I have clearly shown that it is not a sign of a false prophet to be unaware of some historical facts.
For Gary who sent me to this website: Is it more clear now as to what the problem is?
With that, I am going to bow out of this discussion and honor Nick’s request to close down discussion. I will not be reading more, but will be available for questions at http://www.Bibleinfo.com. Just preface your questions with “Please have Cyril answer.”
For the truth,
Cyril
PS: And, as for that handsome couple you see by my messages, that’s me alright, but 56 years ago when I was dating Charlotte at age 21–we’ve been married 53+ years now. Time has not improved my appearance, but looking forward with you all to Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body. . . 🙂
Cyril,
Not to beat a dead horse, but you keep bringing up false information. The most recent example is the so-called “Jesuit oath.” It’s not real. That’s not to say that the Jesuits don’t take vows, but it is to say that their vows are nothing like what you’re referring to.
As for Christ and Tradition, this one’s easy. What Christ condemns is not Apostolic Tradition (what St. Paul refers to as “the Traditions we passed on to you”), but the traditions of men, and specifically, of the Pharisees. Apostolic Tradition isn’t of men: it’s of God. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says,
“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”
Tradition by letter, then, is Scripture. Tradition by word of mouth is extra-Scriptural Tradition. Catholics are the ones following the Bible here.
You can’t nullify the word of God in Scripture to say that St. Paul was wrong, and that Scripture isn’t Tradition, or that the only Tradition that matter is Scripture.
Hopefully, I caught you before you bowed out of the conversation completely. In any case, go in the peace of Christ. God bless,
Joe
Jesuits are murders of millions…
Check out Lineage… the YouTube channel!
WOW!!
I was just sent this link of this blog, and read about a third of all these comments…
There are many comments against SDAs, for whatever reason, and I do see a lot of Scriptural discussion going on…
I know that it is almost a year later, but I wonder if there were any concrete answers shared on the view of the SDAs, and EGW… ??
waw…SDA is not Christian and egw is the whore of the babylon…. simple as that
You whack.
From my understanding, the above article on “Answering Seventh-Day Adventism” only talks about and rebut views of Ellen G. White. None is mentioned by the author about the Holy Bible and where Catholicism fits in. Sabbath as a day of worship was mentioned in the Bible of which I belief Ellen G White agrees and that’s where the Seventh-Day Adventist faith was based on. I am an Adventist and that’s where we stand, now, what about the Catholics? Where do you stand in the bible. Remember! most of the quotes as mentioned in the above article regarding Sunday Worship where quoted in the New Testament and has no specific wordings which reads “Sunday” in it. You can worship him any day of the week, however, God has made one out of all the Days unique and Special, and that is none other that the Sabbath Day!
Let Jesus be the Judge when he returns!
See you in that Glorious Day!
Maiwas
Maiwas, Catholics fit in quite well since they were the ones who delivered scripture (the same scripture you hold so dear) intact over 14 centuries until the Protestant Reformation. Not sure why Protestants always seem to forget that is was the Catholic Church who placed the cannon together long before any other denominations came about.
Ma’am,
catholicism didn’t ‘deliver’ Scripture to us, the Bible says ‘men of God’ did that. if you are saying that catholicism is ‘of God’ then surely your ‘church’ would still keep the Holy Sabbath. but they don’t, i know this because i am a former (35yr) catholic.
catholicism is in the Bible, however. see Rev 17 and then see its destruction in Rev 18. it is surely not a ‘church’ of God. though there are some who are Christian still in catholicism. prayerfully they will wake up soon!
God bless, Misti!
the “man of God” were Catholic not SDA. You wasted your 35 years being Catholic. accidentally you married with SDA women and suddenly you became antiCatholic.
The whore of the babylon, is false prophet. In our history, only one lady claim to be prophet, ellen g white.
So… that one guy, who said the end of the world would come in the year 2000 was not lying… might I add he was Catholic in the year 700
Anthony,
But there are many scriptural books outside of Bible,but “Sunday worshippers” brought the one you use.No kingdom can be divided,judge it by its fruit.Fruit of your sect are abortions,ours is Mother Teresa.
St.Joseph and Mary pray for us!
Actually, an old Dead Sea scroll written by Jews did, not Catholics…
Right… chaining it to a wall, instead of giving copies of the beloved scripture to people… and telling lies instead… wow!!! So much caring… Chains and bonds…. No one can read it cause its in Latin… so sad… you know, if you where a commoner… back then, you’d have no Bible…
Why do Adventist Health hospitals perform therapeutic and ELECTIVE Abortions for profit?
Find out.
All of this talk about theology is meaningless while your church is murdering unborn babies for profit.
Abortion is MURDER regardless of what caused the conception. Every child is a creation of GOD.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/adventlife.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/have-adventists-moved-out-of-the-abortion-business-by-nic-samojluk/amp/
Which is more important? The observance of the old sabbath (Saturday), the memorial of creation sanctified by God and made Holy or the Lord’s day (Sunday) which marks the new creation, the Resurrection and triumph of Jesus over sin and death? Whcih one has more weight?
Helping others vs. Observing the Sabbath:
In the scriptures God commanded us to help one another [Deut. 15:11; Mat 5:42; John 15:12] and to observe the Sabbath [Ex 20:8-11]. The Pharisees gave more importance to the Sabbath in the process broke his other command to help one another. Jesus reprimanded them [[Mark 3:1-6; Mat 12:1-3; Luke 14:2-4]].
Giving tithes to God vs. Honoring Father and Mother:
God commanded us to both Honor our father and mother [Ex 6:2; Ex 20:12; Mat 15:4] and to give tithes to Him (not giving to Him is robbing Him)[Malachi 3:8-10; Deut. 12:5–6; Lev. 27:30–34].
you wrote ‘which is more important’, and proceeded to call God’s everlasting Holy Day the ‘old sabbath’. you then called Sunday the ‘Lords Day’ which is still and always will be the 7th Day, according to Scripture.
‘which has more weight’? are Commandments now optional for a Christian?
you wrote ‘helping others vs observing the Sabbath’.
why? did Christ not demonstrate that helping others is good to do on the Sabbath (as always)?
catholicism has totally proved to be anti-Christ in its teachings. as this Sabbath ‘change’ was foretold in Daniel 7:25 and will never be accepted by Christians. the Bible is clear on this!
i am gentiles and i don’t practice Jewish sabbath. About Daniel 7:25, you should use complete Bible.
Your “church” carries out Abortions in Adventist Health hospitals.
Your church murders unborn babies in its hospitals. Which weighs more? HUMAN life of unborn infants or a day of the week?
You put aside God’s commands for your man made traditions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/adventlife.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/have-adventists-moved-out-of-the-abortion-business-by-nic-samojluk/amp/
Jesus Resurrection is Christian hope for salvation…. memorial of creation they call sabbath, no salvation. in the end of the day the sabbath fall because of Adam and Eve fall.
The one God made Holy!
Hi,
I’m a little bit more interested(sorry if am I being rude to know about the little horn mentioned in the book of Daniel 7:8 & 8:9. My SDA friend when out to hit my Catholic friend(which is when I decided I’m no longer putting up with him) saying that the little horn in Daniel 7 is the Papacy, while secular history and a study of his reasoning gives a perfect answer as it isn’t the papacy, history meanwhile shows it to be Epiphanes of Antiochus.
I would be of great help.
Thank you.
Joel(for the record I’m an Orthodox- hoping both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches can reunite and live as one like before).
indeed, Sir, the little horn is certainly the papacy! dig into the proof, search here http://amazingdiscoveries.org/268
while you did say that ‘Antiochus Epiphanes’ was the applied interpretation, that seems true in looking back through history, however, Daniel is for ‘your people’ (jews then, Christians now) ‘in the latter days’ (today!) – Daniel 10:14.
keep digging Sir, the truth is there for all to have!
God’s will for you and yours, i do pray!
http://www.amazingfiction.org/little-horn.shtml
I did a little bit of digging as per what you said and found that,
I checked the site you gave me, but the dates mentioned there is contradicting historical dates.
i believe the dates line up. from what i have they do.
when we focus on the description that the Word gives us, we see that none other fits like the cult of rome: scarlet and purple. sits on 7 hills. calls its priests ‘father’. forbids priests from marrying. has the blood of the saints on its hands (inquisitions). commits fornication (political and spiritual) with the kings of the earth (none other travels the world, as mr bergoglio does, and has their hands drooled on/plus who just addressed the u.n. and congress last september?). calls itself ‘mother’ so God labels is ‘Mother Babylon’. the information goes on and on and on!
in understanding Daniel 2 and 7, we know that the only system coming out of pagan rome is papal rome.
the evidence is overwhelming and clear. the cult of romanism is identified in Scripture and this is not where a Christian should be.
God bless!
The Adventist “church” carries out Abortions in Adventist Health hospitals.
The Adventist church is drunk on the blood of infants.
Your church murders unborn babies in its hospitals.
Which weighs more? The innocent life of unborn infants or a day of the week?
You put aside God’s commands for your man made traditions and murder infants while laying up heavy burdens on others.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/adventlife.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/have-adventists-moved-out-of-the-abortion-business-by-nic-samojluk/amp/
Really mate??? Actually, according to the church manual, it is actually prohibited… strongly prohibited!
thanks Joe! thanks for erasing my comments/answers/rebuttals to and from others.
it’s clear from the Bible who this end days entity is that has most of the world blinded.
Jesus used Scripture repetitively when rebuking satan. this today is what is needed for rebuking catholicism.
in the end, the Word of God, which is just not compatible with catholicism and its bogus ‘teachings’, wins.
‘Peace if possible, truth at all costs’ – martin luther
God bless, Sir!
Anthony,
Did you forget that satan is testing Jesus with Bible quotes?And His thoughts are not our thoughts.
And no body knows when the last days will be,but your “prophets”sure tried and failed.
St.Joseph and Mary pray for us!
Nope… but as I recall… your church has had some prophets that chose the year 2000 for being the year of the end…
Can someone from sda please prove the writter wrong concerning ellen g white prophesy it looks like the writter has clearly shown that mrs white was no prophet after all
ellen was the false prophet and SDA build based on false prophecy.
They won’t be back. EGW was a false PROFIT (Prophet)
The Adventist “church” carries out Abortions in Adventist Health hospitals.
The Adventist church is drunk on the blood of infants.
The SDA church murders unborn babies in its hospitals.
Which weighs more in God’s eyes? The innocent lives of unborn children or a day of the week?
SDA worship a day while murdering the unborn.
SDA put aside God’s commands for your man made traditions and murder infants while laying up heavy burdens on others.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/adventlife.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/have-adventists-moved-out-of-the-abortion-business-by-nic-samojluk/amp/
No any sda answered this question since,what’s wrong?am not a Catholic or SDA am evangelist with no considering any day as important than other both are God created days.
Yes you are 100% correct I’m SDA raised Catholic and SDA. This is an abomination and these doctors will go to hell! I asked the SDA Adventist these things they can’t answer just like here. God’s most important commandment is to love one another. This means his creation! This means babies. God forbid some of these abortions are coming from pastors wife bc their baby have an extra chromosome or birth defect. We are SDA and we march with you Catholics against satanic Baal/Moloch abortions.
Yes EGW have errors so what. Jesus is the only mediator and who saves. Jesus kept the Sabbath holy meaning Saturday he was a Jew nor a Greek etc or a blonde LDS. True Christians follow Christ.
You are all mistaken fighting my denomination is right…nope all denominations have been corrupted by the infiltration of darkness. Whatever names these secret societies are called you all fell to do what they want to destroy faith and churches….so they can welcome their fake antiChrist one world order beast 666. Unite your hearts in the love of Christ bc we will need each other when WW3 breaks and Christians will be persecuted including atheist for not bowing down to the beast.
Both faiths have really amazing truths like the Sabbath is holybahd sanctified! No argument about this fact. Also, that abortion is Satanic. Abortion is the new Baal/Moloch sacrifices. This is correct beyond doubt the sanctity of life.SDA March protect the babies don’t allow your hospitals to murder Gods children! And Catholics try your best t go to mass on Saturday.
Peace be with you all, don’t be paws of Satan.
You have established your own church/faith based on what you accept and reject from other faiths. In other words, you are still Protesting…
Where will we put Muslims?they usually rest on Fridays.
The sda church is nothing more then a church that is full of judizer doctrines and old testament legalism
Wow… that’s sorta what the Pharisees and Sadducee’s said to Jesus numerous times!
Good day, just voicing my own opinion here:
Resting in any day of the week, if not the whole week, is good, who wouldn’t want that? But Catholics, especially devout ones, make sure that there is always time to worship, may it be once, twice, seven times in a week, some even twice a day. Judging the righteousness of others based on what day they worship is sadly an Adventist trademark.
Another flaw in Adventism is poisoning the well of history, especially pre-Reformation history. The Church Fathers were heretical(though they pick some out-of-context quotes to prove some of their points, or disprove Catholic teaching), writings, like the Didache, were labeled false, and the whole “Dark Ages” was viewed as a period where the Holy Spirit seemed to have been silenced.
Adventists should first remove the prejudice and bias against the Church and see the Church for what it really is. An institution made for all, sinners and saints included.
Anthony,
Did you forget that satan is testing Jesus with Bible quotes?And His thoughts are not our thoughts.
And no body knows when the last days will be,but your “prophets”sure tried and failed.
St.Joseph and Mary pray for us!
I am no schoolar and I have questions to be answered buly Vic and whoever can …
SDA’s believe when we die , that’s it. We are in waiting spiritually on this earth until we are called or summoned upon. Correct? Than what do we have free will and a heaven which we go to in love and hope and faith?
Since Jesus was murdered on a Friday, buried on a Saturday( his body rested)and rose on a Sunday. We christians ,Catholics,and other religions as well ,praise his revival and miracles bestowed in the truths and perfectness of the embodying of gods child on a Sunday … Why are SDA congregations unable to prove the questions they are asked? Notice the over all mentality of the SDA people and how they are indvidually. Negative to questions. Closed doors to generations old printed proof in the books and innocence of a true love and self consciousness. If the bible was theory than wouldn’t that make SDA’s blasphemous and a deity as opposed to a REAL ANGEL ( JESUS CHRIST’s) teachings to his deciples and prophets?
It’s a holy day for SDA’s … A day of burying. Not the day of rest as jusus and god both rested on the original sabbath day.
G.O.D. Good Orderly Direction
is a way of life written for LOVE and HOPE and FAITH and PEACE in the world. So why change and misconstrue for convince or a false prophets claim?
Christmas is known and celebrated throughout the world. Correct? Why can’t SDA celebrate the birth of baby Jesus perfection in innocence but do celebrate his burying of his body???
Bro you no scholar… as Jesus said.” Lazarus is asleep.”
Death is sleep not soul anything…
The Bible says that when a man dies, his breath returns to God, so he just sleeps…
I am no schoolar and I have questions to be answered by Vic and whoever can …
SDA’s believe when we die , that’s it. We are in waiting spiritually on this earth until we are called or summoned upon. Correct? Than what do we have free will and a heaven which we go to in love and hope and faith?
Since Jesus was murdered on a Friday, buried on a Saturday( his body rested)and rose on a Sunday. We christians ,Catholics,and other religions as well ,praise his revival and miracles bestowed in the truths and perfectness of the embodying of gods child on a Sunday … Why are SDA congregations unable to prove the questions they are asked? Notice the over all mentality of the SDA people and how they are indvidually. Negative to questions. Closed doors to generations old printed proof in the books and innocence of a true love and self consciousness. If the bible was theory than wouldn’t that make SDA’s blasphemous and a deity as opposed to a REAL ANGEL ( JESUS CHRIST’s) teachings to his deciples and prophets?
It’s a holy day for SDA’s … A day of burying. Not the day of rest as jusus and god both rested on the original sabbath day.
G.O.D. Good Orderly Direction
is a way of life written for LOVE and HOPE and FAITH and PEACE in the world. So why change and misconstrue for convince or a false prophets claim?
Christmas is known and celebrated throughout the world. Correct? Why can’t SDA celebrate the birth of baby Jesus perfection in innocence but do celebrate his burying of his body???
Bro… the Bible says… The living know that they will die, and the dead know NOTHING.” The Hebrew word for it literally means literal death, and literal nothing.
Also… Seventh Day Adventists don’t believe that the soul is still on earth… rennet in Genesis how God breathed the breathe of life into Adam… well, Jesus and King David said, “When we die, our breathe goes back to God.” It doesn’t say soul… neither does it say that breathe is soul in the Greek or Hebrew… check out BibleHub.com
Same thing with the word rest regarding the passage, Sunday worshippers traditionally use to fight Seventh Day Adventist teaching on the day of worship.
“ And that Christ died on the sixth day, rested on the seventh, and rose again on Sunday.”
The word rest, literally is meaning both literal rest, and the what we would call’ “ Resting in the Day of Worship.”
Also… why worship on Sunday, when the only reason is to celebrate his rising from the dead… In fact, the Satan holiday, ( As stated by Satanist ) of Halloween, was actually originally a holiday for celebrating Jesus’s Resurrection, not a pagan influenced holiday, filled with things that hurt our minds… which lets just be frank, Hod would not want that because he cares for us!
Either way, back to the topic, there is no definitive thing saying that Christ or anything in the Bible states that the Jewish sabbath… was changed to Sunday…
In fact, as written by the Catholics Church’s own high level books, that Saturday was changed to Sunday by Constantine, via a written document in order to merge his empire better, because as we should all know, gentiles/pagans/and false religions worshipped on Sunday.
So How do we know that the sabbath was Sunday?
First we need to know a few points:
A. The Jews have kept time via the use of the moon on a lunar styled calendar. This insured, that weeks have not shifted and that days have not changed… we know this because in Leviticus and Exodus, it speaks of the New Moon as a holiday, for the passing of a month. So with that in mind, it is reasonable to believe that they have maintained time for as long as the moon was used as time, which in Genesis chapter one, speaking of day four… it says… that they shall be for signs and for seasons and for days and for years… so because of this, we know that time has been kept accurately even until Jesus’s time.
B. Exodus 20:8-11 says unless your in a Catholic edition…, “REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy ( speaking of the sanctified and the one made holy in Genesis speaking of the seventh day in creation. ), Six Days Thou Shalt Labor and do All Thine Work, but the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, in it you should do no work, nor you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your man servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor the stranger within your gates, for the Lord Blessed the Seventh Day and Hollowed it.”
And the verse said by Jesus towards the Pharisee’s says that man cannot change the Sabbath because the Lord gave it to man as a way to connect to him… here are the words, “The Sabbath was made for Man, NOT man for the Sabbath.”
So as you can see, even if a shiny pipe in a fancy multi billion dollar church, changes it, then we know who is an against Christ, and is the Anti-Christ.
C. No were in the old and New Testament has it said anything about Saturday getting changed to Sunday.
My apologies for not having scrubbed the over 200 comments, but in case it hasn’t been said here…the elephant in the room…
I suspect that the Van Ottey commenting in these posts back in 2019 is the same Van Ottey who is now in prison for raping my best friend along with other SDA victims.