6 Biblical Reasons to Pray to Angels

Should you pray to angels? Does the Bible have anything to say about this practice? And if so, does it permit it or condemn it?

I should clarify at the outset that by “praying,” I don’t mean “worshiping” them. All Christians are in agreement that worshiping angels is contrary to Scripture, and Revelation 19:9-10 and 22:8-9 are particularly clear that we are not to do so. That question is easy. Instead, I mean speaking to angels, asking them to pray for us, asking them to protect us, thanking them for their protection and prayers, and the like.

With that in mind, consider these six Biblical reasons to pray to angels. I’m going to present each point with minimal commentary, summarizing the resulting picture at the end:

(1) Your Guardian Angel is Praying For You.

Pietro Perugino, God the Father and Angels, Sistine Chapel (16th c.)
In Matthew 18:10, Jesus says, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.” It’s easy to overlook the importance of that line for this question, but Christ is confirming that we each have guardian angels interceding for us before the Heavenly Throne. That’s why He refers to these as “their angels.”
Nor is it just individuals who have guardian angels. Revelation 1:20 tells us that each church also has its own angel. And God uses these angels as intermediaries between God and man: He sends an angel to speak to John and inspire him to write Revelation (Rev. 1:1), and then has this angel transmit a message to John to proclaim to the angels of each of the churches (Rev. 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14). Nations are also entrusted to particular guardian angels, as was done with the nation of Israel (Daniel 10:21; 12:1).
So there are angels who have a direct responsibility for us, and who are involved in our lives, praying for us.

(2) Angels Bring the Prayers of the Saints to God.

Not only are angels praying for us, they’re also bringing our prayers to God. In Tobit 12:15, the Archangel Raphael says, “I am Raph′ael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.” Now, Protestants might be hesitant to accept that testimony: after all, it’s from the Book of Tobit, which they believe is non-inspired. But it turns out, the Book of Revelation confirms what Raphael said. Revelation 8:2-4 says:

Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.  And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Now, Revelation doesn’t specify whether these are the prayers of the Saints in heaven, on earth, or both. But it’s clear that these seven angels (along with an eighth, who serves as a heavenly thurifer) are offering the prayers of the Saints.
So angels aren’t just involved in praying for us, but are intimately involved in our prayers to God. This turns out to be an important point for Protestants, who fear that intercession somehow gets in the way of their ability to pray directly to God. Their prayers directly to God are already going through angelic mediation!

(3) Angels Protect Us in Other Ways, Too.

Pietro Perugino, Annunciation, Santa Maria Nuova, Fano (1490)
Angels help us in countless other ways, as well. Hebrews 1:14 says of angels: “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?” This ministry takes different forms, as they provide for our physical and spiritual needs on the road to salvation.
For example, Psalm 34:7 says that, “The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them.” Sometimes this takes the form of physical protection: for example, in battle (2 Chronicles 32:21). Additionally, it was an angel who gave Elijah food and drink to strengthen him when he had given up on living (1 Kings 19:5-8). But beyond physical protection, angels help us spiritually. When Balaam went to curse Israel, it was an angel who stopped him – invisibly at first, and visibly only thereafter (Numbers 22:32-33). 
Other times, this angelic ministry takes the form of telling us what to do. An angel instructed the Apostle Philip to “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza” (Acts 8:26) so that Philip would encounter the Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah, and lead him to salvation (Acts 8:27-39).
Finally, and perhaps most obviously, they announce the will of God to us. Several times throughout Scripture, angels answer our prayers on God’s behalf, or are His instrument for announcing His will or His plans. For example, the prayers of Hagar and Ishmael are answered by an angel (Genesis 16:1-10; 21:17), an angel who calls Gideon the judge (Judges 6:11-21), and so on. It was the Archangel Gabriel who told Zechariah that his wife would bear John the Baptist (Luke 1:11-13). Or, to take the most angelic appearance in history, it was Gabriel who announced to the Virgin Mary that she would bear Jesus Christ (Luke 1:26-38).
So angels play a huge, unseen role in our daily lives, aiding us on the way to salvation. While this includes prayer, we now see that it includes countless other ministrations, as well.

(4) It’s Okay to Speak to Angels.

As we’ve just seen, Scripture presents several times in which angels speak to men and women. And you know what? The people that they’re talking to often respond. For example, when Gabriel announces the Incarnation to Mary, she asks him how it could happen, given her Virginity (Luke 1:34). Both Abraham and Jacob are depicted as speaking with angels (Genesis 22:11; 31:11), as did Balaam (Numbers 22:34), Samson’s father (Judges 13), and many others. Both the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 1) and the Apostle John (the Book of Revelation) are presented as having extended conversations with angels.
In a few of these examples, it’s unclear if the “angel” is actually Christ, but there’s no question that Scripture presents men speaking with angels, and presents it in a positive manner (unless, like the high priest Zechariah, they’re disrespectful: cf Luke 1:18-20). 
Typically, these people speak to angels after the angels begin the conversations. But Scripture doesn’t require this, and King David freely calls upon the angels, along with the rest of Creation, to praise God: “Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Psalm 148:2) and “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!” (Psalm 103:20).

(5) The Disciples Even Speak to Demons.

One point that’s often overlooked is that the Disciples are sent out to exorcise demons (Luke 9:1), and this mission entails speaking to them at times. After all, they are driving out demons in the name of Jesus (Luke 10:17). And when non-Disciples start imitating this, driving out demons in the name of Jesus, He doesn’t discourage them (Mark 9:38). For that matter, Christ Himself spoke with demons (Matthew 8:28-32; Luke 8:30).
Obviously, it’s not as if Jesus and His followers were making small talk with demons. Rather, they were speaking to them in the course of casting them out. But nevertheless, this point is significant, because it would bizarre to say that it’s okay to speak to demons, fallen angels, in order to cast them out, but not okay to speak to holy angels.

(6) This Doesn’t Violate Scripture’s Prohibition Against Consulting the Dead.

Finally, let’s go ahead and anticipate a common Protestant objection:

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). 

And that’s all true: Scripture does condemn consulting the dead. Isaiah 8:19 says, “And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
The Scriptural condemnation of consulting the dead is closely tied to the idea of trying to go around God. Both 1 Chronicles 10:13 and Isaiah 8:19 point this out clearly. But in the case of praying to the angels or the Saints in heaven, you’re not trying to go around God. You’re trying to go to those close to Him: those who are praying for you, offering up your prayers, and looking out for you in innumerable ways.
More importantly, praying to angels isn’t consulting the dead. After all, angels aren’t dead. After all, these are the angels that didn’t fall, the angels who stand in the presence of the Living God at all times (Matthew 18:10; Luke 1:19; Tobit 12:15; Revelation 8:2). They’re alive in a way that we’re not, alive in a way that we still strive to be. 
To act as if angels are dead just because they’re immaterial, spiritual beings is an incredibly anti-Christian attitude. After all, “God is Spirit” (John 4:24), yet we don’t declare “the living God” dead (cf. Hebrews 3:12). This idea that those without bodies are “dead” might make sense for an atheist materialist, but not for a Christian.
While we’re on the subject, this is why the prohibition against consulting the dead doesn’t prohibit praying to the Saints. The Sadducees made the same mistake that these Protestant objectors made, and Christ corrected them for it (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

To say that we can’t pray to the Saints because they’re dead is to say that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a God of the dead. If you believe that, you are quite wrong.

Conclusion

To summarize the case for praying to angels, Scripture has revealed to us that there are spiritual beings who are standing in the presence of God, and who are both offering up our prayers to God, and their own prayers for us. More than this, they are tasked with ministering to us to lead us to salvation. Of course we should talk to them: requesting that they pray for specific things, entreat them to protect us in areas in which we realize that we are weak, and the like. In doing this, we are helping them to do what God has tasked them to do.
And so it’s the most natural thing in the world that Scripture presents holy men and women speaking with angels. How could they not? Consider Genesis 22:11,

But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”

Imagine the absurdity of a Protestant Abraham, afraid to speak to the angel for fear that this might somehow be “worship.” Or a Protestant Mary, too “pious” to ask Gabriel about the Virgin Birth. 
Of course, I don’t say these things to be rude to Protestants, who act out of a well-meaning piety in avoiding acknowledging or thanking the angels who assist them daily. But I do mean to show that this aversion to praying to angels is unbiblical, and born out of a terribly flawed and anti-Christian notion that the immaterial angels and disembodied Saints in glory are “dead,” when they are in fact in the presence of the living God.

25 Comments

  1. By the way, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of my readers. I love blogging, and I love your feedback. In a particular way, I’d like to take a moment to thank:

    1) My international readers. It’s a good reminder of the catholicity of the Church. For example, one of the seminarians here at the North American College, Peter Vale, was in Gothenburg, Sweden recently, and had dinner with a family who mentioned the blog. Stories like that are a great joy to me.

    2) Lecturer Darin Tuck’s students. I was a history major in undergrad, so I was thrilled to hear from Tuck that he assigned Shameless Popery as his “website for the week” for his “History of Religion in American History” class at Stephens University. To those of you reading for the first time, I welcome you to dig through the site, and provide whatever feedback you’d like (positive or negative). Feel free to jump in on any of the discussions, and be assured of my prayers for you during this time of transition. Oh yeah, and mention this comment to him for extra credit.*

    I.X.,

    Joe

    *It’s worth a shot?

  2. I love your posts, Joe. They always challenge me intellectually and spiritually.

    I think you make great points about praying to (or with? through?) angels. As a Protestant, I’m definitely hesitant about this but I think a lot of your arguments are compelling. I think your point about consulting the dead makes sense in the case of angels, but I’m not sure it does with regard to praying to the saints. To me that still seems awfully close to the type of thing that you noted being forbidden in the Mosaic law. Sure, in a very important sense, the saints aren’t “dead” at all. They are with the Lord. But to me, when Saul consulted the medium and asked to speak to Samuel, it was much the same situation.

    Now, granted… asking a witch to call up a ghost is not exactly the same as praying to a saint and asking them (in a sense) to pass on the message to the Lord. As you say, the goal isn’t to avoid God in the latter example. But still, I think this is where many of us Protestants get nervous about the idea.

    Thanks again for sharing these thoughts!

    1. Thanks, Matt! I always enjoy your feedback. I could hardly ask for a better audience.

      A) On the matter of praying to your angels, my suggestion to get past the queasy factor would be to simply do it. If it helps, there’s a simple prayer many Catholics pray at the beginning of the day and/or before going to bed: “Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God’s love commits me here, ever this day (night), be at my side to light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.”

      The prayer seems clearly orthodox, given how Scripture describes the role of angels. And it avoids the extremes of either acting as if angels are themselves deities, or (what I would suggest is much more common in our culture) treating angels like they’re subhumans that exist for our use. These are spiritual beings more powerful than us who serve us because that’s what Christian strength and leadership looks like (Luke 22:26).

      B) As for praying to the Saints, I think you’re making the right distinction. 1 Chr. 10:13 criticizes the fact that Saul “consulted a medium” while Isaiah 8:19 rebukes those who “consult the mediums and the wizards.” The focus is on the attempt to get around God, and that doesn’t apply here.

      In your comment, you mentioned both praying for the dead, and praying to them, and were uneasy about its compatibility with Jewish Law. As Daniel says below, both are permitted within Judaism (both Old Testament and modern Judaism).

      Praying for the dead: Judas Maccabeus prays for the dead, and offers sacrifice for them in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45:

      “43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

      And the Jewish practice of praying for the dead continues to this day with the Kaddish prayers.

      Praying to the Saints: In addition to the resources Daniel provides below, I’d again point to 2 Maccabees. Before a final battle against the oppressor Nicanor, Judas Maccabeus armed his men “not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief” (2 Macc. 15:7). 2 Macc. 15:8-16 then describes Maccabeus’ prophetic dream:

      “What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

      I know that Protestants and modern Jews don’t accept 2 Maccabees as inspired Scripture. But I’m not using them for their inspired status. Rather, I’m saying that 2 Maccabees was popularly accepted (either as canonical or inspiration) by many Jews and most early Christians, which at least shows us that Old Covenant Judaism didn’t view these prayers to the Saints as contrary to the Mosaic Law.

      I.X.,

      Joe

    2. Thanks a lot, Joe. I really do love this blog. Catholicism seems tough to understand from the outside. That’s why I don’t waste time asking outsiders about it. It’s great to have a true friend who can clue me in.

      Personally, I’ve never seen a problem with praying FOR the dead. Maybe some Protestants would disagree with me but I think many would be on the same page. And you’re right, we don’t accept 2 Maccabees as canonical, but I think we can at least agree that it sheds historical light on Jewish beliefs. I’d go a lot farther than that, actually, but canon discussions are a separate thing.

      As far as praying TO the saints (or through, maybe), I won’t go so far as to say that I definitely think it’s wrong. Intercessory prayer is obviously a real thing. Among the living, it is clearly shown in scripture (Abraham praying for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example). And you cited that scripture from Revelation about the saints above. But as a daily practice, I still think that there’s a risk of “going around God,” as you mentioned. By God’s grace, I have access to the Lord. I can approach him with my praise and my requests (Heb. 4:16). To me, it would be creating a false barrier between myself and the Lord to pray through someone else.

      This may seem like splitting hairs. Either way, the goal is to send our praise and our requests to God. But the reason it’s important to me is that I really feel that Christ’s work brought us into better communion with God and I want to stick close to my Lord. I want to be reminded that I rely on Him and that all good things come from Him.

      I don’t mean any disrespect by any of this. I really do appreciate hearing your thoughts.

      1. Thank you, Matt, for this. By God’s grace I have access to the Lord. This helps me because I have recently felt a. Communion with my angel but have felt uncomfortable and confused about praying to her. I think I will continue praying to God and welcoming any help my angel wants to give. I understand that the heavens are big enough for all of us but my brain and my conditioning has trouble processing it all.

  3. “… this is where many of us Protestants get nervous…”

    Matt, Don’t worry about getting nervous…. shoot… I get nervous when I talk to other Catholics and I’m catholic!

  4. “To me that still seems awfully close to the type of thing that you noted being forbidden in the Mosaic law.”

    Please consider:

    The practise of praying for the intercession of the dead is of early origin. Caleb on reaching Hebron visited the cave of Machpelah, and prayed to the patriarch to be saved from cooperating in the conspiracy of the scouts sent by Moses to make a report of the conditions existing in the Holy Land (Soṭah 34b). The Talmud mentions the custom of visiting the cemetery to request the dead to pray for the living (Ta’an. 16a; compare ib. 23b).

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5019-death-views-and-customs-concerning#anchor7

    Also:

    http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

    What would St Paul say about interpreting the law in a way that out-Pharisees the Pharisees?

    0.o

    1. Sorry for the VERY late response. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don’t see the Talmud as scripture and I’d rather base my belief on this from scripture. I don’t think I’m being Pharisaic to limit my arguments to the Torah. Actually, that seems more… er… Sadducaic? I’m making up words at this point. Sorry.

  5. I think the Jesus Himself taught us something about the subject of communication with the Saints by his very example at the Mount of the Transfiguration:

    “And it came to pass about eight days after these words, that he took Peter, and James, and John, and went up into a mountain to pray. [29] And whilst he prayed, the shape of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became white and glittering. [30] And behold two men were talking with him. And they were Moses and Elias, [31] Appearing in majesty. And they spoke of his decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem. [32] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep. And waking, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. ( Luke 9:28-32)

    Here we note that both Moses and Elijah are discussing future events with the Lord, and in a similar way that the angels are portrayed communicating to men throughout the Bible. But I don’t think this really should surprised us. Didn’t Jesus already give us some indication of the after-life when He said in the Gospel: “…For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30)?

    If the very definition of ‘Angel’ signifies ‘messenger of God’, and as taught by Jesus the Saints will be like the Angels, then doesn’t it logically conclude that the Saints should also perform such messenger type functions even as the Angels do?

  6. Are you *currently* being sent into Hell forever … automatically excommunicated (outside) of God’s Catholic Church ?

    Answer: Yes you are … you can reverse it … please continue.

    Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 Nov 1439 — infallible Source of Dogma >
    “Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the Catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally.”

    You must believe the Catholic Dogma to be in the Church … Dogma you have *never* seen.

    Site > Immaculata-one.com … infallible Dogma throughout.

    The Catholic Faith *is not* Bible interpretation … it is the Catholic infallible Sources of Dogma. The Catholic Church didn’t even define the Bible’s New Testament Canon until 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage.

    – – – –

    Can a group which enforces the opposite, the opposite, and the opposite of the Catholic unchangeable Dogma be the Catholic Church?

    No, it cannot possibly be the Catholic Church … and promotion of the opposite of the Catholic Dogma is exactly what the vatican-2 heretic cult does … and has been doing since it’s founding on 8 December 1965 at the Vatican.

    The vatican-2 heresy does not have the Office of the Papacy … only the Catholic Church has the Papacy.

    The Dogma cannot “change” or be “reversed” … God does not “change”.

    The founding documents of the vatican-2 heretic cult … the “vatican-2 council” documents … have well over 200 heresies *against* prior defined unchangeable Dogma. Every (apparent) bishop at the “council” approved the mountain of heresy, which caused their automatic excommunication, see Section 13.2 of the below site.

    – – – –

    Section 12 > Anti-Christ vatican-2 heresies (50 listed) … followed by many Catholic corrections.

    Sections 13 and 13.1 > Photographic *proof* of heresy at the Vatican.

    Because of … the Catholic Dogma on automatic excommunication for heresy or for physical participation in a heretic cult (such as the v-2 cult) …

    … we were all placed, body and soul, *outside* of Christianity (the Catholic Church) on 8 December 1965 … the close date of the “council”.

    Section 13.2 > Catholic Dogma on automatic excommunication for heresy or participating in a heretic cult such as … vatican-2, lutheran, methodist, evangelical, etc.

    Section 107 > St. Athanasius (died 373 A.D.) … “Even if the Church were reduced to a handful …” – – during the “arian” heresy … we are there again, but worse.

    Section 13.3 > Matt 16:18, Gates of Hell scripture … is *not* about the Office of the Papacy … four Dogmatic Councils defined it … that heresy will not cause the Dogma to disappear.

    Section 13.4 > The vatican-2 heretic cult does not have the Office of the Papacy only the Catholic Church has the Papacy.

    Section 13.6 > The Catholic Dogma on Jurisdiction and Automatic Excommunication for heresy define that … God has allowed Catholic Jurisdiction … for Mass and Confession to disappear from the world. There is no such thing as Catholic Mass outside of the Catholic Church.

    Non-Catholic heresies such as “vatican-2”, “sspx”, “sspv”, “cmri”, etc. … do not have Catholic Mass.

    Section 19.1 > Dogma on Abjuration for *re-entering* Christianity (the Catholic Church) … after being automatically excommunicated. A Formal Abjuration is provided here also.

    Section 10.2 > Returning to a state of grace, in places and times when Confession is not available, like now.

    – – – –

    Second Council of Constantinople, 553 A.D. — infallible Source of Dogma >
    “The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy.”

    Blessed John Eudes, died 1680 >
    “The greatest evil existing today is heresy, an infernal rage which hurls countless souls into eternal damnation.”

    Everything you must know, believe, and do to get to Heaven is on > > Immaculata-one.com.

    Victoria
    Our Lady of Conquest
    Pray for us

    1. Victoria,

      Sedevacantism is impossible, for reasons that I explain here. It’s ironic that you should cite to the Council of Florence, which only underscores the need to hold to the Successor of Peter in Rome. There can be no serious question that the Roman Pontiff is Pope Francis.

      If you’re going to claim to be the “real” Catholic Church, who is your pope? Where are your Cardinals? Show me your Apostolic Succession and where Christ promised the Keys to the Kingdom to whatever offshoot of Christianity you belong to.

      I.X.,

      Joe

  7. The sedevacantist mind is grotesque and ugly from decades of intellectual incest. Their ideas only germinate among fellow travelers who try to out-Catholic the pope. Their spiritual eyes become diseased and they can’t see the Divine Light. Their ears are broken, and they are deaf to the Word. Their six toes leave them awkwardly unbalanced and wobbly at the foundation and ground of Truth.

    Let’s review the historical record from their point of view:

    In 424 a bunch of bishops had a Council and said that they were the Church and those Nestorius-haters were out of it. In 431 some other bishops had a Council and said they were the Church and those Nestorians were out of it. In 449 some other bishops had a Council and said they were the Church and the diphysites were out of it. In 451 some other bishops had a Council and said they were the Church and the monophysites were out of it.

    They all claimed to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and they all had a Council.

    But how do we know which Council was a true Council and which was a robber council? How do we know which claimant is the real Church and which is an impostor?

    If you say a true Council is one in communion with Pope, then it begs the question of who is the Pope? If there is a debate about a theological issue, how does one decide if the Pope is a heretic (and therefore NOT the pope and therefore cannot ratify a Council)? Do we use the Council to judge the Pope? Do we use the Pope to judge the Council? Does a previous Pope set the precedent for the future Pope? Let’s assume for a second that the ultramontanist interpretation of Unam Sanctam is correct and their interpretation of Vatican 2 is correct–even assuming the two principles therein contradict (as dubious as that theory is to those of us with half a brain), on what basis can they have certainty that Boniface VIII wasn’t the REAL heretic instead of Paul VI?

    On what consistent basis can they list the methodology of thought that tells them with certainty that Francis is an antipope but the coptic Pope Theodoros II isn’t?

    A Council supports Theodoros. He has apostolic succession. And so on and on.

    They take every burp and fart from the popes they like and treat them as Divine Decrees, and disregard actual *dogmatic* statements of faith intended to bind the whole Church as utterances from a heretical usurper.

    It’s madness!

  8. There has always been extreme controversy in the Church, which is the reason for the many synods and ecumenical councils in the first place. I’m sure there were many of disciples at the first Council of Jerusalem saying similar things as Victoria, only with a Jewish slant. Things like: “Of course the Corinthians need to be circumcised! The Lord WAS circumcised! And if they don’t stop eating pork they’re definitely NOT going to receive baptism! The Lord never ate pork! And the Athenians… they must solemnly renounce both Plato and the olympics before thinking of following us! What on earth is the world coming too…thinking you don’t need to be circumcised!?”

    Hence the need for an authoritative Shepherd, like the first Pope Peter, to be the ultimate word on all such dilemma’s which are bound to arise until the end of the world.

  9. Interesting dialogue on Angels to follow on the eve of my twin publication in commemoration of the fifth anniversary of my sacerdotal ordination:
    – Peeping into the World of Angels
    – Praying with the World of Angels
    I’m certainly going to snatch a few ideas from here. Permission presumed O!

  10. Hmmmmm mr joe. this is coming to you in nigeria. it fells good to be catholic, and even more good to know your doctrine as such. thanks for making the day brigther.

  11. I was actually learning alot untill i got kinda lost on all the Catholic “dogma” stuff…the thoughts about praying to angels was very well thought out and eye opening…thanks for ansering some questions i had! But after reading all the catholic stuff…hmm…i dont think im a heretic…but im not catholic either…lol..why cant we all just go by the bible? By the time they had all of their council s…were there even any true men of God present? Or were they more like the sanhedrine…spelled right?…who had christ crucified in the first place because they thought they knew everything? Im sure they all thought they were very important men!

    1. Troy,

      Christ promises in Matthew 16:18 that the Church will never be overcome by the Gates of Hell. So we don’t need to worry about the whole Church ever going into apostasy.

      As for the early Christians, it’s through them that we even have the Bible, or know which books belong in it. So trying to take the Book without the Church is like having the branch without the tree.

  12. Actually if you look closer it does say where the Saints are at, “all the saints up on the golden altar before The Throne”

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *